SNSD: An inquiry and the results... (PT 2)

    Super Anti

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    SNSD: An inquiry and the results... (PT 2)

    Post by Labakittie on Sun 03 May 2009, 9:32 am

    Introduction: This is part two of my editorial based on personal research, opinion pieces, and the fallout that occurred afterward. Unfortunately I had to divide it in half because it was too big. XD

    Aftermath and Accusations

    After submitting the piece, I didn't dream that the fangirl largely responsible for the inquiry would find her way to my journal. We were not friends, though I would consider the relationship amiable before the opinion piece. I did not ask her to read it. I only wrote the piece with the sincere hope of conveying everything that I found and what conclusion I had come to.

    And yet, here this person was. It was no big deal at first, I understand some people would possibly be offended by the topic and opinion, however, it seemed no matter how much I explained, how much I backed up my statements with logical conclusions, how much I attempted to make the writing as clear as possible, she did not understand. I boggled. Was I not being specific enough? Was there something wrong with the wording? And so, to make it easier for this person and anyone else who may have read the original piece, I wrote a second, longer, “expanded verdict”. Surely this would make my findings a bit more clear.

    Verdict Expanded

    (The following is lifted directly from my expanded opinion piece. As with the other one, PLEASE don't post this anywhere. I am wary of unnecessary drama.)


    I am actually writing this extended follow-up for three reasons:

    1.) To make it clear that I am not, not, NOT an "anti-fan"*. I do not hate SNSD with the fire of a thousand suns. I dislike Tiffany a great deal, but I don't hate her. I don't hate the group. Thinking that Taeyeon fails as a leader does not equal wanting her to die in a fire. She seems so weak and pitiful half the time I feel sorry for her. Other times I want to shake her and scream, "MAN UP!", But hate? Nope. It is possible to draw a negative conclusion about a group without having a bone to pick with anyone.

    2.) To make it clear that even if certain members say and do things, it will reflect badly on ALL members and why this is the case, and to make it clear that a fundamental part of team-work and "one-ness" is ensuring that everyone is on the same page, that everyone is aware of how their actions affect the group, and how important it is that all members make sure that each and every person is aware that everything they say and do will affect how their group is viewed. An extended part of this is fan behavior, and why sometimes the attitudes and actions of fans AND WHAT THE IDOLS DO TO INFLUENCE THAT BEHAVIOR falls under this.

    3.) For the sake of anyone who read my previous review, to understand my specific take on various instances of questionable behavior, how that behavior compares to other SM groups (and other music groups), and why I find this behavior inexcusable, as why I find a lack of reprimand from SM equally inexcusable. I will also address the difference between petty bias and genuine concern.

    1.) Korea, the importance of R-E-S-P-E-C-T, and SNSD's apparent lack of it.

    Korea is a place that's big on respect. The bowing, the formal speech versus informal speech, and honorifics for those who are senior in age and status all serve reflect a society that feels it is key to demonstrate consideration for the esteemed and for one's betters.

    The Korean entertainment industry is no exception, where interaction even between members of a group fall along lines of "hyung", "dongseang", "sunbae", etc. These terms and the ideology behind them do not magically vanish, understand, when one becomes a pop star. It's a part of the culture, it's a part of daily life.

    I am not Korean, am not remotely Asian, but I have at least gleaned this much from Korean culture:

    Respect = Good.

    Disrespect = Bad.

    So then, what does it say when members of SNSD shirk the above? What does it say when they do not return bows or gestures of respect (when it coming from those senior to themselves no less)? What does it say when they fail to address their seniors as "sunbae" and instead address them and speak of them and to them in an informal manner...and doing this not that long after having just debuted?

    It says that someone took a wrong turn at Albuquerque, and it wasn't Korea.

    When you are called "Girl's Generation", and when you are promoted as a group meant to represent a young generation of girls, it is UP TO YOU TO DO JUST THAT. Yes, youth can mean being immature and giggly, it's to be expected. But an untolerated aspect of youth, particularly in Korea, is disrespect for one's seniors, ESPECIALLY coming from a group that claims to be role models for the youth of today.

    So when fans of the disrespected and neutral netizens alike react to the undesirable behavior as, well, appalled, some people take it upon themselves as stating that such folks are "overreacting", that "it's no big deal", and that pointing out how disrespectful they're being is just "petty".


    It's not petty to expect that people who have only been around for a short amount of time in the industry, and DO NOT have the years of experience and training that other groups and individuals have, and have yet to earn any respect or seniority themselves possess enough sense to conduct themselves like well trained and well mannered representatives of their company.

    I confess that I've only been aware Kpop for a couple of years, however, I have never ever heard of a Korean group behaving that way. I have yet to see video footage of any new group being so casual and informal towards their senior at the company. I'm not even going to TOUCH the comments directed at Shinhwa (I don't care if they were joking. New artists should have enough sense to know that if one is not familiar with or connected to a group, especially upon debut, addressing them in a less than respectful fashion isn't going to go over very well. Period.)

    They've been around for about a year and a half, and yet it feels like they themselves have not progressed. No, I do not consider aggressive promotion by SM and possible "greasing of palms" (bribing of news authorities, rigging of charts, irrelevant propaganda, etc.) to be growth. As far as I can tell, the so-called "Gee craze" was manufactured by SM and evaporated in the presence of genuine competition. Even now, the most aggressive promotion seems to be by the group or by other SM artists.

    What I refer to is how the group members themselves behave. With controversies and acts of attention whoring as recent as a couple months ago, I'm extremely skeptical that as a group SNSD understands what it means to be respectful in a society that expects no less from its citizens, regardless of their occupations.

    2.) A new breed of anti-fans...

    As I stated in the intro, I myself am not an anti-fan of SNSD. However, I can't help noticing that along with the usual group of jealous fangirls who declare themselves to be antis of ANY group of pretty girls who get to close to their pop idols, SNSD has a large group of anti-fans who do not like them for reasons having nothing to do with their looks, but rather their attitudes and actions.

    They despise SNSD because they find them to be disrespectful, rude, and a bad influence and false representation of the young female generation. They refer to examples of SNSD's behavior as to why they feel that way and declare that they are eagerly awaiting the group to go down in flames.

    This is actually very important.


    Because it suggests that SNSD's own actions had a hand in causing so many people to dislike them, and to be honest, I agree with this sentiment being the case.

    If we erase every controversy, every instance of disrespect, heck, let's go so far as to replace Tiffany with some other girl. Let us completely omit all of these things from SNSD history.

    Do you think that the planned boycotts at Dream Concert 08 and SMTown 08 would have happened?

    My money is on no. Sure there are jealous fangirls, however, without these attitudes and actions, there would not have been enough fuel to light a spark under the bottom of all those fan groups, or encourage them to create a historically coordinated effort to make it painfully obvious how little they respect this one group.

    I have not heard of any other Korean female groups or solo artists receiving that kind of treatment.

    It's expected that in an industry where teenage girls clearly prefer their boy bands, girl groups would have fewer fans and that they would have jealous fangirls treat them coldly and with suspicion, but you can only blame so much on jealousy. The reality is that while jealousy can make people boo, but only righteous indignation can spur that many people to behave the way they did for the Dream and SMTown 08 concerts.
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    SNSD: An inquiry and the results... (PT 2, part 2)

    Post by Labakittie on Sun 03 May 2009, 9:33 am

    (continued from first part)

    3.) Rotten apples, rotten leadership, spoiled bunch

    There are certain things that are absolutely key to the success of any Kpop group. Steady and continuous promotion. A marketable image. The right amount of talent (or looks if talent is lacking). A couple of other important aspects would be all members being on the same page and having good leadership within the group.

    It's these last two aspects that are hurting SNSD most, and have caused the lion share of their troubles.

    It's ironic after reading how members of the group consider themselves to be a stronger unit then their seniors, Super Junior. Even making a comment like that (one that upset members of Super Junior understandably) shows how off-kilter they are. You do not praise yourself at the expense of your seniors, especially in public, and especially considering you have not been around as long as said seniors or experienced the hardships of said seniors.

    Okay, so SNSD is "one"? Very well.

    With this in mind, let us examine that old saying, "one rotten apple spoils the bunch".

    I can peg Tiffany as the rotten apple pretty easily, but seeing as I've watched and read about less than classy behavior from several members at various times, I wonder if the "rot" can truly be limited to one person.

    If one rotten apple is to be found in a barrel, how appealing does that make the rest of the apples? If Tiffany is rotten, how much better does that reflect on the group as a whole?

    And this is where the importance of good leadership comes into play.

    Taeyeon, as the leader, is responsible for not only setting a good example for her members, but for keeping them in check.

    What would a good leader had done when Tiffany made a joke while the man she was hosting with was discussing volunteer efforts concerning the earthquake in China?

    A good leader would have grabbed Tiffany in the collar and explained in no certain terms that she was going to write a heart felt apology and explanation asap, and that if she did or said ANYTHING ELSE that would reflect badly on herself or her fellow SNSD members, there would be hell to pay. And that she'd better not even think about hiking her skirt up to the point where panty-shots were possible in an effort to stand out.

    She would not whine about treatment at a hospital and mock the nursing profession. She would not fall back on excuses of being "ill" or not "feeling well", and if she didn't feel well, she would be the first to address the matter rather than letting fans worry.

    As I stated in my first review, merely feeling tired or a little under the weather as an excuse holds no water with me. Not after seeing people work themselves to the point of absolutely having to be hospitalized due to exhaustion. To the point of immobility and unconsciousness, and to the point of not being able to talk. Not when fans are praying desperately for their gaunt and red-eyed idols who've lost an almost insane amount of weight and look as if they may drop dead at any moment. And sure as heck not when compared to other leaders, who despite functioning on less than 3 hours of sleep a day, smile and promise to work even harder...and mean it.

    THAT is leadership and dedication.

    THAT is what earns respect.

    I admit hating the poor standards and treatment of Kpop idols with a passion, because it hurts to see people work so damn hard knowing that they are getting crumbs in return for their effort, but I take my hat off to them anyway, because they are the embodiment of what it means to be professional.

    If SNSD had someone like that, someone with that kind of drive, determination, and class, the group would not be so despised. They would not have been the most popular (as again, girl groups aren't), but they would have been respected in a way that they currently are not by fan groups and netizens across Korea and around the world.

    Unfortunately they don't.

    They have no leader as far as I'm concerned. What they have is SM propping them up in an attempt to ram the group image down the throats of the nation in order to shake-off the nightmare of massive protests and boycotts. I await the Hollywood Bowl and newest Dream Concert to see just how well that works out.

    To say I'm skeptical is an understatement.

    Whats more, given the actions and attitudes of the members, it's no surprise that some of this bad behavior has filtered down to the fan base. I don't believe ANY fan club is free of its share of nuts, creeps, and over-zealous fangirls, but I have never seen a group witness such detestable behavior or hear rumor of such from their fans and not issue any kind of a reprimand.

    Has SNSD reprimanded their fans for anything? Even Sungmin pleaded with E.L.F to be civil after last year's banner incident (and amid rumors of severe abuse and threats from SNSD fans), but I have yet to hear once instance of "scolding" from SNSD.

    It seems that unfortunately, adoration is the only thing that SNSD cares about in relation to their fans. If they did care about their fans, they'd act as a unit to set a good example and to inform these fans of what is expected of them. They would also be the first to address their own wrongdoing, and not leave it up to their fans to make excuses for them, because from what I've seen, those excuses are wearing thin on the nerves of various fan groups and netizens, if the excuses were ever palatable at all.

    4.) Fan groups speak louder than words.

    Korean fan clubs are a unique bunch. They are a prism through which a spectrum of identities shine forth. They are a sisterhood/brotherhood. They function as the significant other of their idols to the point of feeding and clothing them. They love deeply, and their rage can be a fearsome thing to behold if they feel their idol has been wronged. Together, they are capable of moving acts of love and dedication, or of shaming and embarrassing their idols with their behavior. You have not seen fandom until you've witnessed Korean fandom at work.

    As I mentioned before, SNSD's actions were perceived as so obnoxious, fandoms actually joined together in a show of solidarity against the group.

    For those who do not understand how significant this is, please understand that these fan clubs aren't always on the best of terms with each other. For example, Cassiopeia and V.I.P.s, the fan clubs of DBSK and Big Bang respectively, regularly scrummage over their idols. Collaboration with artists of different sexes can lead to rampant jealousy and harassment of one or both of the idols, as well as their fan groups. Absolute unity in an industry where competition is key, especially in the eyes of fan clubs, is a rarity indeed.

    That's what makes images of an absolutely pitch black stadium where the only lights are from the stage and from the tiny mass of SNSD supporters so powerful: there's no precedent.

    And while tempers seemed to have cooled slightly (or not at all depending on who you ask), I do not think SNSD has been truly "forgiven" by any fan group. I say this because neither the group nor their fans have done anything of significance to endear themselves to these groups, to have extended any kind of an olive branch, or to have done anything of note to make these other fan groups truly see SNSD in a different light.

    With talks of future boycotts whispered across the internet, I don't think this will be the end of the matter.

    5.) Why again, do I feel they should be disbanded...

    When a group exhibits unprofessional behavior, when members are not reprimanded by their representatives for their behavior or bother to apologize for it, and when a group can inspire fan clubs notorious for squabbling to come together and declare in one voice, "Go away!", something is truly wrong with this group, and no amount of talent or promise can make up for it.

    And no amount of money, either.

    As I hinted before SM is in the red. The company is losing money, and when that happens, the smartest thing that company can do is re-consider its investments and end projects and groups that are not profitable. I suspect that the problem is worse than we know, simply because the accusations of bribing news reporters and buying off awards is not all that shocking in an industry looking more and more corrupt every day.

    So then, when you have to manufacture success and promote propaganda through questionable good can you really be doing?

    And if you are going to invest that kind of money in a group and in damage control...shouldn't they be worth it? Shouldn't that group be doing their damnedest to not make trouble, to be respectful, to be role models, and to take responsibility for themselves and their actions, without a publicist doing it for them?

    Shouldn't they TRULY be acting as a unit, making a name for themselves without constantly having to rely on collaborations with other artists because even now it seems they cannot stand on their own? Not without constant strings pulled, palms greased, and other groups pitching in?

    No other SM group is this needy. No other SM group stirs this much controversy. No other SM group brings this much bad publicity and bad blood.

    There is only one solution: Dissolution.

    Cut SNSD loose, keep the ones that are in any way profitable and let the band go and hope that there is not too much hostility that it could get in the way of promoting the individual.

    No group should cause this much grief for their company and fellow company employees and continue to exist.

    As I said before, I feel it is the most decent decision that could be made, and after re-evaluating my previous opinion, I do anticipate this being the eventual outcome.

    EDIT: Editing to add that SM's actually been in the red for awhile now apparently, particularly after losing groups in the early 2000s, HOWEVER, the company's current financial situation is unknown.

    *I wasn't at the time I wrote that. A few headaches later, I was kind of nudged into it. XD

    Conclusions Drawn From Inquiry

    After everything that was researched, written, and experienced first hand, I learned that yes, it was possible to dislike someone for purely logical reasons, and to be an anti without being motivated by hatred or jealousy. I learned that not every fan is capable of pulling themselves away from fandom in order to examine points of view different from their own. And I also learned that sometimes, no matter how much you research, how neatly and absolutely you lay out your opinion, or even how many ways you try and explain your findings and thoughts, people will not be receptive to them if they don't want to be.

    Despite the headaches that occurred, it was overall a very educational experience.I have learned a great deal about SNSD fangirl/fanboy patterns, but that will have to wait for a future editorial.



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    Re: SNSD: An inquiry and the results... (PT 2)

    Post by aneutralanti on Sun 03 May 2009, 12:53 pm

    Labakittie, a very well written article/piece. I found myself agreeing with everything you wrote.

    I'm not here in this forum because I'm jealous of them, not because I hate them. And frankly, I've never been the type of fan that screams and hates every single female celebrity that comes near the male group I like. No. The reason I'm here today is because of their actions and attitudes.

    In the beginning, when they were set to debut, I was actually planning to give them a chance. And I did. I listened to their song and at that time it was a big deal to me because I have just discovered K-Pop and the only group I was interested in was Shinhwa. That and also because I hardly listens to girl group, so me giving SNSD a chance is actually a pretty big deal to me.

    I found them cute, funny and talented (at least some of them). I laugh at whatever funny things they said and sang along to their debut song. I keep up to date with their news and basically, doing anything to make myself get interested in them. But, I soon lost interest in them and don't really bother to all that thing anymore.

    Then, all these clips started to surface. And then Dream Concert happened. Being in the dark, I decided to "investigate" and I was appalled at what I found.

    It's not the clothing or the dance moves or whatever that turned me off. It was their actions and their not-respecting-our-senior attitude they seem to have. Respect is a big deal in Asia. Not just in Korea. Being brought up in a culture that teaches you to be respectful to your elderly, seniors and such, it was hard for me to accept such attitude from a bunch of girls that come from a country that highly regards respect. (Btw, I'm not Korean. But, I am Asian. I'm from Malaysia) I've never read/watch about a newly debuted group with that much going against them as SNSD did.

    To disrespect your seniors was one thing (what they said about Shinhwa was really unacceptable, in my honest opinion), but to laugh and make a joke out of a tragedy that affected so many lives, is another different story. What Tiffany did was really unforgivable. I was in no way directly connected to the tragedy and yet this is what I fell. Imagine, those who were affected by the tragedy, those who lost their family members and friend, hearing their idol say it would have been like a slap in the face. Honestly speaking, I've never disliked anyone in K-Pop like I do Tiffany.

    I'd like to believe that they would change and that they will not repeat the same mistakes. Time will only tell whether that they will happen. So far, with the rant of their leader on national radio and the other stuff they are accused of, it doesn't seem like there is any difference.

    And, I stand by my opinion about them.
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    Re: SNSD: An inquiry and the results... (PT 2)

    Post by Labakittie on Sun 03 May 2009, 1:30 pm

    I'd like to believe that they would change and that they will not repeat the same mistakes. Time will only tell whether that they will happen. So far, with the rant of their leader on national radio and the other stuff they are accused of, it doesn't seem like there is any difference.

    And, I stand by my opinion about them.

    As you should. :) I'm honestly skeptical because I feel if they're still behaving this childishly about a year and a half after debuting, the future is not to optimistic in terms of the group obtaining any true maturity.

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    Re: SNSD: An inquiry and the results... (PT 2)

    Post by Bento_box on Thu 07 May 2009, 9:27 pm

    I have been wanting to comment on the second half for daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaays Sad

    I have just been busy with the forums, my apologies ~

    Labakittie wrote:

    After everything that was researched, written, and experienced first hand, I learned that yes, it was possible to dislike someone for purely logical reasons, and to be an anti without being motivated by hatred or jealousy. I learned that not every fan is capable of pulling themselves away from fandom in order to examine points of view different from their own. And I also learned that sometimes, no matter how much you research, how neatly and absolutely you lay out your opinion, or even how many ways you try and explain your findings and thoughts, people will not be receptive to them if they don't want to be.

    Despite the headaches that occurred, it was overall a very educational experience.I have learned a great deal about SNSD fangirl/fanboy patterns, but that will have to wait for a future editorial.

    That's exactly what I had felt from day one. Those that consider being a "fan" or "anti" so black and white, can never comprehend that there is far more to being anti SNSD than "hate". I never realised how much of a blessing it is to come across open minded people before SNSD.

    I have never come across any sort of anti fandom before, willingly that is, until our dear STAND had started to come in to fruitition through another community. And I would never have ever joined such a community unless of course I felt there was good reason to.

    Yet people still refuse to realise that we are not "hateful" and would rather label us in such a disgusting way, and insanely try to convince others to feel the same way, that they turn themselves in to what they claim we are. It's seriously sad how one can illustrate how bad something is, by unwillingly turning in to it. And that is what unfortunately the Sone fandom has become. I also pity them for that same reason.

    Some fans have also gone to the extents of stalking communities, practically living in them at times, simply to run around attacking "Antis". Problem being that they were brainwashed in to thinking that SNSD have done no wrong. And by the way ~ one of the biggest things that get to me that comes from the Sone fandom in general is the well, general lack of respect and ignorance that seems to come with being an SNSD fan. I'm not saying that no international fandom has it, but the problem is, it is unbelievably overwhelming with them.

    Idols have been a big part of the 'Hallyu wave', and now even SNSD has been named as being one of the groups openly marketed to the outside world as "representatives" of Kpop. (Note being representatives of Kpop and not influential stars of the Hallyu Wave, lol.) Being a representative of the Hallyu Wave, you need to well, represent the country and its culture and traditions. But looking at their international fandom you can only see what kind of a monstrosity of a mistake that was. If you show no respect, you make it seem like there is no need for it, especially as an "Idol". Thus their fans who insist that because they aren't respectful, it is a part of their culture, that or they're just "close" to whoever they're disrespecting. O__________________O (or pull innocent stars in to the mess by claiming they did somethign similar, because one bad act turns hundreds of thousands of people against you (!). It's the accumulation of dozens of, and the lack of redemption from it. Who wouldn't learn from something huge like Dream Concert...really!?)


    Labakittie ~ you are a gem my dear. You put everything down so clearly and rationally that you leave little to comment on. And that's why I think that there's a lack of commentary. You've said it all. ;)

    I love you Thanks for your insight and sorry for all the torment this has caused you ~ but thanks to it, because it brought you here... Razz

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    Re: SNSD: An inquiry and the results... (PT 2)

    Post by SuJu-Lurve on Thu 07 May 2009, 10:30 pm

    I agree with pretty much all you've said.
    I loved the way you wrote your editorial.
    It was clear and concise and laid out all the points so well.
    Good job Labakittie. ^_^
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    Re: SNSD: An inquiry and the results... (PT 2)

    Post by Mizuki on Fri 08 May 2009, 8:42 am

    It's great to have people like you around STAND. Really, I appreciate your hardwork on writing this 2nd piece. :3 What you have typed down for us all here speaks for many of us. Thank you very much. I am never good with words. Many Sones that I have encountered would always say, "If SNSD died, you would be overjoyed, right?" or "You hate them so much you would kill them!" These statements never bothers me but it helps me realize that those Sones do not think deep enough. Sure, some people who are against SNSD would love to see them dead or whatnot. Sones must acknowledge the fact that not everyone is the same nor thinks the same. Sones get angry when someone says, "ALL fans are harmful, bla bla!" Of course, not all fans are filled with the insanity of doing harmful, crazy things. We, too, have "antis" that are civil and don't resort to just nonsense.

    Anyway, respect is always emphasized because of culture. Culture must be important to a person's life. A person's life must be treasured and not thrown around like a piece of trash. SNSD as a whole do not respect others which leads to not respecting themselves. They have no self control nor do they keep each other in check. Like you said, no other artist(s) in SM has ever tainted the company and caused such a storm. I believe SM does not want to fail so it holds the hands of the nine girls and walks with them everywhere they go. Even with this, the girls still do not do well. Why? People do not want to see horrible people over and over again. When something negative occurs, one must take responsibility for it immediately. SNSD act like little kids that need guidance 24/7. These girls, really, are old enough to think for themselves and see wrong from right. But apparently, their selfishness gets in the way.
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    Re: SNSD: An inquiry and the results... (PT 2)

    Post by Labakittie on Sat 09 May 2009, 7:13 pm

    Yeah I saw a lot of the immature assumptions while researching this and it really made me roll my eyes.

    Oh, and I think you have a great way with words. :)
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    Re: SNSD: An inquiry and the results... (PT 2)

    Post by KangNaMi on Fri 09 Oct 2009, 8:38 pm

    STAND is lucky to have a great person like you..
    Also, respect is really important in Korea..
    Last time I checked, SNSD do not respect others..
    SNSD are acting like babies..
    But thing is, they are in their 20's so they have to start acting mature..
    I am not even sure if SNSD can do it..
    Let's see if they can prove me wrong.. relax

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    Re: SNSD: An inquiry and the results... (PT 2)

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