SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Share

    SoHot
    Anti

    Number of posts : 47
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-09-06

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by SoHot on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 12:36 pm

    wow, this is heartbreaking.
    I know how bad Cassie wanted to boycott and remain silent but hearing their jeajoong asking for the cheers must of made them feel guilty,confused & temped.

    Please Cass, we sympathize you. You guys are making history and doing a great example for other FC's. You are showing them not to be weak and stepped upon. We know it's been a long time coming~ so please don't give up now. Keep Fighting!
    avatar
    MinnieMinMinChunnie
    Official Anti

    Female Number of posts : 180
    Age : 24
    Location : YOomIN's hOMe
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-09-13

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by MinnieMinMinChunnie on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 12:53 pm

    sheesh...

    now they're dragging DbSK in this mess...

    they think cass will just forgive SM like that because of jaejoong (unless they really support DBSK regardless of pride)

    AUGGHHHHH!!!SNSD just brought more mess to kpop....

    Why don;t they just disband and everyone will be happy!!well except soshits who do nothing but imitate their platic idols
    avatar
    brokenhearted
    Moderator
    Moderator

    Female Number of posts : 703
    Age : 30
    Location : at a corner feeling depressed.
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-07-22

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by brokenhearted on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 12:56 pm

    I feel bad for Cass, DBSK & basically all fc's & artists of SM except the insanes & shitdae.
    They are all suffering because of SM's stubbornness to listen to his customers. It's like he ignore all his other fc's & only care for insanes. While it's the insanes that cause so much drama & antis for his annoying 9.
    Cass's do not waver & stand strong.
    Despite what gets thrown to ya'll just continue to stand strong.
    Sooner or later LSM is gonna get in through his thickhead(s) that Cass's & the other fc's mean business.
    avatar
    OopurpleoO
    Super Anti

    Female Number of posts : 437
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-08-15

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by OopurpleoO on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 1:00 pm

    LSM is a psycho , I don't know what to call him. .. that old geezer

    poor Jaejoong T___T

    Cassiopeia Hwaiting
    avatar
    Oh_Mona
    Official Anti

    Female Number of posts : 235
    Age : 24
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-07-30

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by Oh_Mona on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 1:20 pm

    SM is showing their weakness, they've been shaken by Cassiopeia and it shows. Again, they show their lack of care for their artists, how demeaning is it as a performer to have to go and ask the crowd to cheer for you? I feel sorry for JaeJoong, he sounded awkward speaking and that long pause

    "Please cheer............etc"

    Gah, I feel so sorry for all of them.

    That MuBank canellation is just plain fishy, MuBank is one of the biggest music shows, why would they cancel? This sudden win, without the backing of cass (And not even being no.1 on the Mnet charts) makes me wonder who will win the mutizen(Mnet and SBS being the 2 channels SM has the most control over) next week...

    Why must SM be so stubborn and makes this drag out for so long?

    Cass~ Stay strong, DBSK Stay strong~

    I don't understand how people can think this boycott has nothing to do with SNSD, they're one of the things that drove Cass to the edge. Lay off BB yo, she ain't anti DBSK/All SM artists, all she does is compliment them. Thanks again BB for the great article~
    avatar
    Wendy
    The Shy One

    Female Number of posts : 17
    Age : 28
    Warning :
    1 / 101 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-09-27

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by Wendy on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 1:36 pm

    I'm usually a lurker here, and I've never posted before because I don't agree with some of your STAND rantings/arguments, but I agree with disbandsnsd and Rinni. People recognize STAND as an anti-SNSD forum, not a anti-SM-management forum. Posting these articles about SM mistreating Cassiopeia (which imo, is a bit of a stretch) gives people the wrong impression. And being a fan of TVXQ (as most of us are), shouldn't be better if you repackage how STAND is like to the general fandom public before posting these articles up?

    I mean, I understand how you guys don't like how SM treasures SONE better than other fanclubs (and again, I still find this a stretch despite me lurking here for the past few weeks), but your original objective in this forum doesn't seem to emphasize that. What I'm trying to say is, is that maybe you guys should change how you publicize STAND to netizens because at a glance (e.g. from first-time visitors), it looks like it's targetting all SM artists and it certainly doesn't look good for a forum that already has a poor reputation among most netizens. These articles raises questions on what STAND really is about, that's all.

    Just my two cents. ;)
    avatar
    boomboomnya
    Official Anti

    Female Number of posts : 196
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-07-14

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by boomboomnya on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 1:54 pm

    DBSK deserves so much more =[
    they should totally dump that old perv
    and leave just like Shinhwa did

    they would be much more succesful and happier
    and not to mention cassies can be the happy go lucky awesome fans
    that they've always been =]

    DBSK/CASSIES FIGHTING!
    avatar
    Oh_Mona
    Official Anti

    Female Number of posts : 235
    Age : 24
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-07-30

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by Oh_Mona on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 2:01 pm

    Wendy The problem is that most people don't know what STAND is, but choose to judge it solely because of our label "Anti SNSD".

    You have to understand, that Cassiopeia do play a part in the "Anti SNSD'' movement, wether the international cassies like it or not. If people are curious as to what STAND is about, they wouldn't just "glance", people who judge us and what we stand for by just a glance are not worth our bother and their opinion means nothing to us. Only people who do their research and actually bother to understand us, are who truly matter. (Please refer to the STAND Agenda, the sticky in the news section)

    Our main goal is to disband SNSD, but as others have said before me, we have to get to SM first. Not everything is as simple as it seems. The articles regarding Cassiopeia and SM artists have no negative comment towards the artists/fans themselves. They all fall underneath the SM umbrella and their FCs were the ones that began this all, so therefor this article is relevent.

    The first part of this article explained what SNSD have got to do with this, this is just a continuation. Please refer to the other article if you are confused.

    I don't understand how this would be insulting to any DBSK fans, It has no mention of anti DBSK or Anti All SM artists, it actually sympathises with them. This is shedding light on all that has been hush hush in international fandom. If anything the international fans should start paying attention to what is really happening in K-Pop instead of cancelling this out because they don't want to 'believe'. Not everything is fine and dandy, especially when it comes to Cassiopeia/SM, its time people got out of their bubble and started noticing what is going on with their korean counterparts.

    This is completely relevent to the Anti SNSD movement, Cass are taking a stand against SM, with their minds set on certain goals, including the disbandment of SNSD. To say that Cass are not a part of the Anti SNSD movement and that they have nothing to do with it is just... well bull. They started it all, and they are determined, why wouldn't they see this through?

    But thanks for the comment, and I hope you can be more active in other parts of the forum also.

    snoopykiri
    Newbie

    Number of posts : 9
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-07-27

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by snoopykiri on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 2:49 pm

    seriously~ i'm so upset about u guys writing about DBSK not getting cheers and such! or not being on top of the chart! PEOPLE! They are coming back after 2 years, why don't you guys cheer for them rather then talking about how they are not getting cheers or votes on Mnet?????

    Plz don't bring DBSK in these anti fan article~ plus, I think this is an anti SNSD forum, not an anti SM forum!

    Sr if whatever I say offense u guys~
    But u make it sound like Jaejoong is begging for cheers

    This is anti SNSD forum but I can't see anything that mentions SNSD in the article~ it sounds more like DBSK is the target~ we know this is an anti SNSD site, but how about others? When they come in this website and see these articles, I'm sure that they would think the main target of this whole thing is SM artists and you guys are talking about how desperate DBSK are for cheers
    avatar
    queenbee
    Admin
    Admin

    Female Number of posts : 2166
    Location : between Kangin and Jaejoong~
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-08-03

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by queenbee on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 3:09 pm

    ^
    *sigh*

    try reading the comments section a page before this one....


    _________________

    Right now... it's War Crime Shi Dae

    SNSD = FAILURE
    avatar
    Kamo
    Admin
    Admin

    Female Number of posts : 447
    Age : 28
    Location : in changmin's kitchen
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-07-11

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by Kamo on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 3:14 pm

    We understand your concerns against this article (and others) but please, please, please, read the article again AND the comments. You'll find that all of the answers to your questions are there. Also, I recommend reading the rules thread (we aren't bashing any other artist here...in other words, we are NOT anti dbsk. We support them wholeheartedly and ARE cheering them on. This is pretty clear around the forum and in the cb [shameless plug]). The STAND Agenda states clearly what STAND is all about so if you have any doubts about it, just go check it again to make sure.


    Important thing to remember is that everything we post here is related to the whole anti snsd deal, if not it wouldn't be posted. These articles have been heavily researched and worked on extensively by our members and have undergone editing. Look at the big picture... these are puzzle pieces.


    <3


    _________________


    no really, what?
    avatar
    brokenhearted
    Moderator
    Moderator

    Female Number of posts : 703
    Age : 30
    Location : at a corner feeling depressed.
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-07-22

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by brokenhearted on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 3:54 pm

    We understand everyone's concern about talking about DBSK, really we do but you all are missing the point here.

    Like many of us have stated already, the objective here is to show what the effect of having SNSD in kpop or in this point SM is doing to SM's other artists & their fan clubs.
    Our purpose is anti-ing SNSD yes that is true but to get to SNSD we have to get to SM first since they are backing SNSD & they refuse to listen to what is going on.

    So for us getting to SM we have to show what is going on. We all feel for DBSK & Cassi's. Not just them but all other fanclubs & SM artists that are being affected by all this, but this is a clear sign that what we are doing is getting to them.

    We are gonna continue to talk about what is going on with SM even if that means talking about DBSK or Suju for example. Why should we sugar coat what is really going on? Just because we like DBSK & Suju does that mean we shouldn't talk about how they are being affected? No we are gonna talk about them because all of it leads to the real reason for all this chaos & that's SM's stubborness not to disband SNSD.


    Last edited by marmar on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 3:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    key
    Super Anti

    Female Number of posts : 402
    Age : 23
    Location : US
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-09-09

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by key on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 3:55 pm

    BB. well written.
    SM is very desperate now.
    avatar
    klSTAND21
    Official Anti

    Female Number of posts : 121
    Age : 26
    Location : In Changmin's Heart. ♥
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-07-15

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by klSTAND21 on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 4:55 pm

    *sigh* so depressing. =[ SM seriously needs to get things straight he's being so ridiculous right now! Poor Jaejoong. I feel so bad for them
    avatar
    Wendy
    The Shy One

    Female Number of posts : 17
    Age : 28
    Warning :
    1 / 101 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-09-27

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by Wendy on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 5:01 pm

    Either I didn't write my post well or you lost the point of my post. :3

    In any case, I know perfectly well that you're not "anti-ing" TVXQ or any other K-Pop artists. I've been lurking here long enough that you guys don't dislike any other artists but SNSD, and I understand that perfectly. I've read your agenda, read your sticky's, read your management-related posts etc. What I'm trying to say is that, your purpose? To disband SNSD? It doesn't come off as your main purpose to someone who just randomly came across STAND (e.g. not regular visitors).

    The problem is that most people don't know what STAND is, but choose to judge it solely because of our label "Anti SNSD".
    That's exactly my point. Most people don't. And you guys should try to (re-)emphasize that. SNSD anti's are a sensitive issue to the K-Pop fandom. While I agree that international fans should open their eyes a little, but STAND is mixing up the messages they're trying to put across to the general public (e.g. not regular STAND visitors) by pulling TVXQ's comeback into this (something that has been constantly talked about in fandom for the past couple of years).

    Again, please note that it's not me personally who's confused about STAND's policies and agenda's. I'm just relaying how your article would look upon someone who just found out about STAND.

    Of course, you guys don't have to care what others think, but hey, it's something to think about considering STAND has become such a label for non-supporters in K-Pop.

    Azure Ire
    Newbie

    Number of posts : 4
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-09-26

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by Azure Ire on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 5:23 pm

    Well, a lot of the fans online did vote before their comeback to try to keep quiet so that the general public could listen to their live performances. There are a lot of people who just change the channel because of all the screaming or can't hear the live well because of it. Sooo they tried to tone it down, but it's just that Cass also stopped saying the phrases in the chorus as well.

    SM has been trying something different though. One thing is DBSK's homepage. The staff member named 'T's posts are very friendly, which kinda freaked a lot of the people out at first because SM was being nice at dnbn. Then the fans were surprised that the cheer was posted as a notice because SM never seemed to really pay attention to what the fans did.

    plastics
    Anti

    Number of posts : 57
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-08-15

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by plastics on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 5:28 pm

    ^^ Okay, now I understand what Wendy's talking about. And I somewhat agree with your point. I mean, what if some beginner anti (BUT full on intl DBSK fan) came across this forum and saw the DBSK posts on how Cass isn't supporting DBSK, it may look to the newbie like we as STAND is supporting how to anti and boycott DBSK. You guys get what I'm saying? They might think that just because we don't like SNSD, we don't like DBSK too, thus we are supporting the boycott. I know the newbies MUST read the related articles explaining the boycotting to understand why we are supporting it in the first place, but what if they are super newbies, and they still don't know how to get around here in STAND? They might get lost here in STAND. Plus, their emotions (hate / they might be mad at us because they still don't understand why we support the boycott) might overwhelm them and thus, block out the need (read the other articles) to understand us more.

    I think this is what Wendy is saying. Wendy, correct me if I'm wrong.

    Maybe a warning at the start of the article (for the newbies) with links / explanations and everything might be nice so as not to confuse the newbies?
    avatar
    Wendy
    The Shy One

    Female Number of posts : 17
    Age : 28
    Warning :
    1 / 101 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-09-27

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by Wendy on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 5:40 pm

    Hmmm, sort of like that. :)

    Not just super n00bs either, but just overall people who are sensitive but just look for the simplest message in a post. Like how people skim articles/books to avoid reading the whole thing.

    Warnings are good, but since negative images often come out stronger than positive ones, maybe there could be sort of a repackage of STAND's public/Internet image altogether? Your message to SM doesn't seem direct enough. It feels like it's going to different directions, and your agenda isn't too clear.
    avatar
    Ethanol
    Super Anti

    Female Number of posts : 426
    Location : Hawaii
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-07-28

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by Ethanol on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 5:55 pm

    I'm so heartbroken...Jaejoong having to resort to begging Cassi to cheer...Oh Cassi, stand strong. It hurts, but you must show SM their faults! Beloved Dong Bang Shin Ki, please understand our motives and forgive us. cry

    Edit:: I agree with Wendy. I'm a bit confused myself on why there's so much threads about DBSK's comeback. Even though I adore these posts and the insight and everything, it may get a little confusing on why there's so much of them and what the true intents of STAND are.
    avatar
    soshihater
    Sexy Anti

    Female Number of posts : 795
    Age : 30
    Location : in Mangekyou Sharingan's world
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-07-13

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by soshihater on Fri 10 Oct 2008, 8:13 pm

    omo i feel sorry for jae joong..
    he has to swallow his pride just becos of that old man!!

    and btw about the things some ppl worrying about, i think it's kinda obvious rite? the article didn't talk about DBSK's failure and stuffs. WE'RE NOT BASHING DBSK. we just stated our desperation towards LSM for being too busy with his plastic toys until he kinda forgetting the other fans club.

    and don't forget about what medias wrote after the SMTOWN Live in Shanghai. THEY BLAME CASSIOPEIA for the boycott! WTF??!!! you see, fans are reacting based on what they get. it is causality rite?

    so i guess you have to open your mind and see the article in different view. if you read the article carefully then you'll see that this is nothing to do with bashing (or whatever you call it) DBSK! we just show our concern

    but most of it...
    WE JUST SHOW THE TRUTH

    have a nice day^^
    BB you're great!
    avatar
    soshit
    Awesome Anti

    Female Number of posts : 1439
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-07-17

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by soshit on Sat 11 Oct 2008, 12:13 am

    i feel sorry for both dongbang boys and cassies~ they are the victims while sm just doing his shit with his 9 plastics...
    avatar
    Bento_box
    Admin
    Admin

    Number of posts : 1686
    Age : 31
    Location : 샤핑카엘♥
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-07-12

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by Bento_box on Sat 11 Oct 2008, 1:57 am

    Wendy and all those concerned about the mention of DBSK~

    To be honest Im quite grateful for you guys to ask about the mention of DBSK, it allows us to explain why to those also interested in our coverage.

    To make it clear, we are covering the progression of the disbandment of SNSD. It may be hard to understand fully the goings on on the Korean side, and that is why we are covering it in such detail. Cassiopeia are fully behind the disbandment of SNSD and this is a part of the 'movement'. So the validity of the coverage speaks for itself.

    Secondly, I understand the concerns in regard to mentioning something so hard to bear as a boycott of SM products as DBSK fans. It's not something to sugarcoat, it's happening and it's ignorant to not acknowledge it. We want to keep our members informed in terms of the progress in disbanding SNSD.

    Thridly, in terms of "noobs", you must for a second put yourselves in our position. Imagine we had to explain the relevance of every article in every single post. It will be unbelievably tiring, boring and repetitive. The reason I didnt explain it in the beginning of this article, because as it so boldly says in the title it is "Part 2" of the original post which pretty much sums everything up. I will make necessary adjustments due to your concerns and add a "warning", nevertheless we like to give credit to our members to be able to comprehend our meanings.

    This site was always risque, we never intended or gave ourselves the delusion that we will be welcomed in to the community of Kpop with open arms. We are simply anti-snsd trying our hardest to disband SNSD and to cover the progresses of that notion. This is involved, it may take some a longer time for it to sink in, but we will not hide information for fear of being misunderstood.

    If we fear being misunderstood by these "noobs" then really we will be walking on eggshells through out our existance. We have been involved in the K-pop fandom and know it very well, what is happening is a step by step process that will be understood for those that lack experience in time. Just have faith that we know what we are doing and covering. We dont intend on hurting the feelings of our members, this is the sad truth.

    And in regards to the International fandom, we are covering the most important part of this by giving the Korean side that some fail to grasp or have access to understanding.

    I really am grateful to your concerns and it is so kind of you to mention it. Wendy if you have any more concerns, and that goes for any other member, do not hesitate to contact me personally through PM. I will gladly take time out to try and explain things to you.

    If I was unclear, my apologies, I am not well these last few days due to the flu. ^______________^

    I worry about our TVXQ fans in the forums, please remain strong, this is for the good of your future as fans, for TVXQ and for fandom in general.


    _________________
    STANDsigs 2 ~ Special Anniversary Edition! click here!

    눈이 빠지도록 기다리다
    You'll never walk alone.♥

    riinjjang
    Anti

    Number of posts : 75
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-08-18

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by riinjjang on Sat 11 Oct 2008, 2:03 am

    erm. what's happening with SM?

    DBSK boys are also humans.. they're not perfect.
    they can win, or they can lose.
    but maybe the greatest award for them is the fan's love and support.
    avatar
    uknow_wifey
    Official Anti

    Number of posts : 199
    Location : looking for the perfect wedding dress with yunnie oppa ♥
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-09-22

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by uknow_wifey on Sat 11 Oct 2008, 2:32 am

    Well, I can hear my heart splitting in two right now...I'm a HUGE fan of DBSK. Just to illustrate how huge, I bought both versions of the CD so I could have both the DVD and the photobook. Also, if they are going to be in Hollywood Bowl 09 I plan on spending my hard-earned cash and hop on a plane to get to Cali from good ole FL...yup, that's how much of a fangirl I am. But even I can't be offended by the article.

    It clearly, to me at least, wasn't bashing DBSK...just simply stating facts. I know it hurts to think that the boys might be insecure or worried but I don't want what the Cassies are doing to be discredited. They are a very dedicated FC from the early days and I know that they wouldn't do this to hurt DBSK. If you have to, think of it as a way to warn SM of his wrong-doings. With this protest, who knows, maybe even Super Junior's comeback won't be as spoilt as I think it would be without this demonstration (I'm keeping my fingers crossed because I'm a SuJu fan as well) once he realizes that the FCs won't take his bull manure sitting down. I mean, if they didn't boycott DBSK those years ago...would we still have Jaejoong in the group?? Good will come of this.
    avatar
    hiyostand
    Official Anti

    Number of posts : 267
    Age : 27
    Location : NYC
    Warning :
    0 / 100 / 10

    Registration date : 2008-08-21

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by hiyostand on Sat 11 Oct 2008, 9:12 am

    This is horrible D: I've been a DBSK fan for 4 years. Artists of their great talent and status do not need to ask their fans to cheer. That's just a bit depressing. LSM has gone an all time low. Why make so many people suffer because of 9 stupid bitches. (excuse my language)

    Best solution: Remove SNSD. They are the cause of all this.

    I'll still support DBSK! They deserve better management. I hate to see Jaejoong do something like that. cry


    Last edited by hiyostand on Sat 11 Oct 2008, 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Adding more to it.)

    Sponsored content

    Re: SM Gone Too Far? - Part 2 - Plan B - Time to beg

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon 21 Aug 2017, 6:44 pm